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Transcript: "The Secret of the 'Discombobulator': How Trump Used Electromagnetic Weapons in the Capture of Maduro"
Source: Radio Zvezda (Russia's Ministry of Defense)
Date: February 17, 2026
Original: https://radiozvezda.ru/programs/202312191437-GfPr2.html/20262171747-EACxs.html
Speaker: Oleg Grigoriev, Chairman of Russia's National Committee on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection

This transcript was created using AI for emfsignal.com and has not been verified by a human.
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Electromagnetic war is an approaching reality.
It will affect everyone — both on the battlefield and, as they say, on the home front.
Because this is an entirely unconventional weapon,
and as both theory and practice have shown,
it can be deployed in completely non-traditional, selective, targeted, and sudden ways.

Why are the Israelis doing something about it?
That's a very good question.
Because they've been discussing these issues.

And what about this wonderful "discom-babulator" of Trump's?
That's a complete invention, an absolute invention
that doesn't exist in any document.
And as far as I could see, when he was talking about it,
the Secretary of Defense was standing behind him,
and I find it hard to pick the right word
to describe the expression on his face —
but he was slightly astonished when he heard that term. You won't find it anywhere.

In the Soviet Union, a laser tank was developed. Currently, two countries in the world — the United States and China — are developing technologies that, without a nuclear explosion, can generate such powerful electromagnetic pulses. Precisely for this kind of purpose and objective. In order to knock out security systems, computer systems, and so on.

All of this, essentially everything that was discussed, is described in two or three articles devoted to the consequences of electromagnetic pulse exposure and acute radiation overexposure. These cases have been analyzed, and it's precisely in this context — a light breeze-like sensation, nosebleeds, and so on, followed by headaches and so on — known as the radio-frequency auditory effect.

[Program opening]

Host: National Security Strategy. Anna Shafran's program. Hello, friends. This is Radio Zvezda. Today we have with us Oleg Grigoriev, Doctor of Biological Sciences and member of the Bureau of the Russian Academy of Sciences Council on Radiobiology. Oleg, welcome.

Grigoriev: Hello, Anna.

Host: We've wanted to discuss the capture of Maduro with a specialist for a long time. Why? Because surrounding this episode, apart from various political intrigues, there is a great deal of speculation about the methods and means by which it was carried out. In particular — was or wasn't the electromagnetic factor, electromagnetic weaponry, used in the capture of President Maduro? It's essentially unknown, but the US administration has been hinting rather insistently that it was. Moreover, the symptoms described by Maduro's so-called guards are said by specialists to match acute overexposure from a powerful pulse, as described in the literature. Please tell us more about what this was.

Grigoriev: Well, Anna, you understand that I wasn't present, right? I only have the data available to me as a specialist — what's been published and analyzed. Indeed, this case, this event, has generated enormous interest among specialists. It's been widely discussed and analyzed. Theoretically — theoretically — if we assume it, everything could have happened. It could have, and moreover, if you look at US military documents — in particular the Air Force doctrine on electromagnetic warfare, for example — it directly and literally states that this should be employed and utilized. Technically, everything exists. Technically, this equipment is quite available. There are special unmanned aircraft that can suppress or jam air defense systems, which then allows more powerful aircraft — or in this case, as everyone knows, helicopters were used — which can carry powerful generators. They're powerful in the sense that they're heavy, and powerful in the sense that they generate a powerful electromagnetic pulse. And the fact that they flew from ships, from aircraft carriers — that's a very short distance for preserving the accumulated energy, the electrical energy that converts into electromagnetic energy. All of this suggests that technically it's possible.

Generators of this kind are being developed in the United States — both generators that can suppress air defense systems (which falls under electronic warfare) and very powerful pulsed electromagnetic generators, extremely powerful ones.

To emphasize how advanced this is: in the United States, under their new concept of scientific and technical development for the armed forces, there are only six — six — main directions. You know, AI, hypersonics, and a few other things. And among these six, one is electromagnetic weapons — directed energy weapons that include electromagnetic pulse technology. All of this exists, and all of it is at the cutting edge of technological progress.

Moreover, the documents lay out not just developing and inventing these things, but specifically the question of mass production. So from a technical standpoint, everything exists. Aircraft or drones could have approached — as we know, they say they all did — jamming air defense and detection systems from a great distance. In the second echelon come these helicopters carrying powerful electromagnetic pulse generators, and they apparently needed them to knock out the security and protection systems of the compound where Maduro was located.

This is also a well-known principle, a well-known approach. Back in the 1960s, when they conducted the first nuclear bomb tests — nuclear explosions, atomic bomb detonations — at a certain point it was discovered that these create powerful electromagnetic pulses that affect all power supply systems, electrical wiring, all protective systems, and so on. The parameters of these pulses were established.

And now two countries in the world — the United States and China — are developing technologies that, without a nuclear explosion, can generate such powerful electromagnetic pulses, precisely for this kind of purpose and objective — to knock out security systems, computer systems, and so on. In other words, all the electronics, all the equipment that runs here in a studio and so on, it all goes dead in fractions of a second.

And of course, the description of what we know — we essentially know about the movements of American aircraft and we know what Maduro's guard and Trump have reportedly said — the symptoms described...

These symptoms are approximately...

Host: What are these symptoms? Let's remind our listeners.

Grigoriev: The symptoms are, first of all, they felt some kind of sound — a sound forming in the head, some kind of light breeze-like sensation, and some people had nosebleeds. Those are the main things, and some people allegedly lost consciousness.

All of this, essentially everything that was discussed, is described in two or three articles devoted to the consequences of electromagnetic pulse exposure and acute radiation overexposure. These cases have occurred and been analyzed. In this context — the light breeze sensation, nosebleeds, and so on, followed by headaches and so on — the radio-frequency auditory effect. What they perceived as a sound — that was a separate special program conducted at the Pentagon in the 1970s and 80s, a major research cycle, which was then abandoned because it was deemed to have no practical application.

And last December, a paper was published by scientists who had participated in that research. They're now elderly, and they analyzed the data, revisited and reminded people about this data, and in their conclusion they write that new generators exist — more compact generators — and of course, such information cannot be concealed, it needs to be discussed, especially given the many debates and several papers published in the US on this topic. So everything seems to align.

But if those guards had been examined within the first few days after the event, looking for certain markers that might remain, then it would have been clear whether it was used or not. As things stand, anything is possible — it could simply be a smokescreen. Look, this exists, that exists, this was flying, they have that in their arsenal, these are the symptoms, and so on. But whether it actually happened, or whether they're using this wonderful story to cover something else — we really can't say.

Host: And what about this wonderful "discom-babulator" of Trump's?

Grigoriev: That's a complete invention, an absolute invention that doesn't exist in any document. And as far as I could see, when he was talking about it, the Secretary of Defense was standing behind him, and I find it hard to pick the right word to describe the expression on his face — but he was slightly astonished when he heard that term. You won't find it anywhere.

Host: Well, maybe it was just convenient — he called it that, and now that's what it'll be called.

Grigoriev: It simply falls into the category of directed energy and broadband and pulsed electromagnetic field generators. That's the standard terminology used in the documents. This is absolutely clearly set out in documents — in official documents, let me emphasize again — in official documents that describe the doctrine, methods of deployment, what should be used, and how, right down to how the units that handle this electromagnetic warfare are organized. All of this essentially exists.

Host: And one more question that many people find interesting — various videos are circulating online about laser weapons that have already been created and are being tested, and so on. What should we know about this first and foremost?

Grigoriev: First and foremost, we should know that this is an absolutely real technology, absolutely real. These weapons exist, they're being deployed, and they're effective. This technology is very complex, very complex. Let me try to explain why. You need to form — well, everyone has seen the film "The Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin," or at least most people can picture it — this monstrous beam, a monstrous amount of energy that needs to be formed. To form it, you need a fairly complex technology — it's formed from many small beams that are combined into one large stream.

This is a very precise technology that requires precise instruments, control, calculations, and so on. So practically speaking, on our planet, two countries have achieved such practical success — a coalition of Israel and the USA (the US provides the money, Israel provides the intellect and production), and the German company Rheinmetall has also made such a laser. They exist, they're being adopted into service, they're relatively effective — relatively effective, in certain situations. That's a fact.

What's their advantage? Their advantage is that they create directed energy on a very small area. And this directed energy — essentially energy transfer — needs to heat up the surface. Just like in "The Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin." This is truly a promising development that could appear in the foreseeable future in military service.

Host: Wait — it's already in service today, already adopted.

Grigoriev: Not only is it adopted — it's adopted in service in Israel, they've completed final testing. A whole range of less powerful lasers are currently undergoing field trials in the US Army. There are wonderful small vehicles on which they're mounted. And interestingly, they're paired with a very powerful conventional machine gun. So if the laser doesn't hit, the machine gun will. All these systems are designed primarily to shoot down rockets — small rockets. For drones, in principle, they can also be effective, if the beam hits — but you still have to hit it, you understand? The peculiarity of this is that a laser is a pinpoint weapon. It acts at a great distance on a moving object, and you need to precisely understand the trajectory of that object to heat it up. So if a rocket is flying along some trajectory, you can quickly calculate and quickly fire this "light bullet" — that's literally what they call it. This is certainly promising in a certain sense, but it has a very limited range of applications.

For example, everyone has heard that Trump ordered new ships — destroyers or whatever they call them — of the Trump class. Each of them has four laser systems planned — two more powerful and two less powerful — meaning they're supposed to protect the ship from individual targets, let me emphasize, individual targets.

To shoot down group targets, that's where the electromagnetic pulse comes in. And the idea, the idea that's embedded in this direction — one of the directions of promising scientific and technical development, or more precisely, equipping, or even more precisely, mass deployment of technologies for the US military — is precisely this combination of lasers and electromagnetic guns. Together, they're supposed to handle everything that flies. Since nowadays this is a very popular topic — all these small rockets, small drones, various munitions, loitering munitions, and so on — this combination is precisely what's supposed to counter and defend against this technology.

All of this is absolutely real. But lasers — that's a story with a very long history. As soon as they were invented — you could even say as soon as Tolstoy wrote his book — people immediately started inventing them. And it's no secret that in the Soviet Union, a laser tank was developed. It had, if I'm not mistaken, six — six or eight laser installations. This was an extremely powerful system, extremely powerful. There was a massive project — I won't name the institution in northwestern Moscow, which has since been demolished and replaced with skyscrapers — that was involved in this specialized development.

Host: But all of that somehow didn't go anywhere. Why not?

Grigoriev: First, as my predecessors who were present told me, Defense Minister Ustinov said regarding people: "I don't need blind and wounded soldiers." Essentially, using it against personnel was considered inhumane, although it was an extremely effective weapon — extremely effective. I'd say it's far more effective against personnel than against drones and similar targets.

Host: Yes, but there's a conventional prohibition — just like anti-personnel mines are restricted, there are similar restrictions on lasers.

Grigoriev: Why are the Israelis doing it then? That's a very good question. Because they've been discussing these issues. What are they focusing on? They theoretically focus on drones, various rockets. But if you imagine a real situation — if this system is deployed and needs to defend itself — they'll completely disregard those conventions and so on and so on. Trump demonstrates this very vividly recently — those who stand behind him couldn't care less about anything around them.

Host: Well, that's natural. It's a natural manifestation of such a paradigm shift — less humanity, and so on. If we rewind...

Grigoriev: Well, Gaza is currently a very vivid illustration of this.

If we return to Gaza and rewind human history a bit — not even that far back — we'll see that humanity has always been fighting, always developing new, inhumane (from a normal person's perspective) methods of destroying people. And here either we need to educate people to understand how terrible this is. The particular situation is that decisions are made by people who themselves, excuse me, have never smelled gunpowder. If each one — I always remember — there was a series of state leaders who had themselves been on the battlefield, who had seen shrapnel flying, some were even wounded, and so on. Both in our country and in the United States, they fought — fundamentally fought — for arms reduction. The period of the 1970s and even 1980s proceeded under the influence of those people who understood what this involves, what destruction, what suffering, what irreversible consequences.

Now it's a different generation that hasn't seen how quickly one limb goes one way and another goes in a different direction, how instantly and irreversibly this happens. It's very easy to sit in an office and make decisions — like, we'll develop this weapon, and this one, and this one. But this is a global trend, a global one.

Host: [Channel promotion break] Join the national messenger Max, subscribe to the Zvezda Analytika channel — you'll find links to all our programs and non-trivial news there.

We started today's conversation about electromagnetic weapons in light of this recent episode — one of the recent ones that made headlines — the capture of Maduro. But it's also interesting to understand the overall situation as it stands.

When Harry Potter and Voldemort fought with their wands — that was probably some kind of directed energy weapon too.

Grigoriev: Well, it's some kind of force, a pain-inflicting weapon — it could very well be. Let me return to earth again. If you take the US Air Force doctrine, paragraph 1.3.1, it lists all physical factors — it precisely fits these physical factors. Everything is there, honestly. Everything that relates to electromagnetic warfare. Let me emphasize once more — this is a term in quotation marks. Electromagnetic warfare.

General Buzhinsky, in his article at the end of last year, called it "digital warfare." Well, that's his point of view, but digital warfare isn't quite what's meant here. Here it's electromagnetic warfare.

Host: Of course, Harry Potter had some kind of energy source that he was using. It looks impressive, I thought. And Star Wars? That's a whole thing. We even suspect that having watched Star Wars, many people today have been thinking about electromagnetic weapons. And to say it once more — if you could briefly and concisely answer the question of why many people think about electromagnetic weapons today, there are probably several very simple, understandable reasons.

Grigoriev: Well, first of all, it's cool.

Host: First of all, it looks good, right?

Grigoriev: And it looks good, yes, yes, yes. Second, of course, you're right, and I absolutely subscribe to this view — everyone has read about it. In Russia, we mentioned "The Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin." There's also a remarkable book — "The Wonder Generator." It was written in the late 1930s, almost a hundred years ago, and was reissued a couple of times. If you read it and compare it with the technical specifications that some enthusiasts have devised, it's straight out of that book — a special electromagnetic device that can neutralize an opponent, incapacitate them for some time, then you approach and simply stack them up somewhere, load them, and there they lie — wake them up later, or don't.

There are actual patents for this. One of the analytical centers in the United States lists and tracks these patents, and among them are patents obtained in China and the US for precisely such a device — the kind described in our Soviet science fiction book "The Wonder Generator."

But if we return to the justifications given when contracts are awarded and objectives are set — right now — first, it's cheap to use, because it's considered fair to say that shooting down drones that cost maybe a thousand, fifteen hundred dollars each with missiles that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars or a million each is economically inefficient. It's far more efficient — yes, it's believed that one shot from a laser or electromagnetic weapon will cost four to five dollars. That's considered very cost-effective.

On the other hand, of course, there's the technical and technological transition happening through digitization — the digitization of command, control, reconnaissance systems, and so on. And it's clear that they all operate on electromagnetic and electrical principles. To disable them quickly and effectively, you need some kind of energy weapon. So electromagnetic weapons come first in this regard.

Of course, technologies have made a very big leap in the last roughly 15 to 20 years — technologies that allow the formation of powerful energy beams. This involves large teams, large production facilities, large research institutes doing calculations — it's a large military-industrial complex that gets loaded up and drives the economy. The innovation factor in this economy is also very important. This direction is being pushed forward and is considered very, very promising.

In the US and China — yes, because these two countries are currently considered leaders — by roughly 2050–2060, a transition is expected from so-called kinetic weapons of the industrial era to energy weapons, weapons of the post-industrial era. And we might still live to see it.

Host: And if we bring this all down to earth, it turns out that essentially all security agencies will be unable to ignore this.

Grigoriev: Of course, absolutely. And of course, the covertness of deployment — the covertness of use. That's what we saw with the — and now everyone is scratching their heads wondering whether it happened or not in Venezuela with Maduro. That's a very important factor, a very important indicator of this whole story — the covertness, the suddenness, and the covertness of preparation. This is a very important factor.

In principle, this weapon could also — and this is discussed — be pre-positioned at certain locations, on low-orbit platforms, and so on, and activated against targets suddenly, precisely, at the moment nobody expects it. That's the direction in which technology development is heading.

Host: And if we talk about electromagnetic warfare and the US, which we've already mentioned today, it appears that it's already mentioned in their 2021 doctrine?

Grigoriev: By 2021, it wasn't just a doctrine — it was actually part of the regulations. The history goes way back. As I mentioned, speaking about our country — more precisely the Soviet Union — Lenin signed a directive in 1921 on the development of an electromagnetic gun. Lenin, you understand? But serious work on it began roughly around 1933–1934. We wrote about this in one of our papers. But they hit the energy problem — it requires a sufficiently large amount of energy. They achieved the necessary result but only at short range. All those wonderful generators that were invented — they all went to practical use. They built a radar station that worked and detected fascist aircraft during the defense of Leningrad.

And this concept, this idea of the need for large amounts of energy, it remains — you can't overcome physics. It remains to this day. But, as I mentioned, in the last 10 to 15 years, control technologies, beam-forming technologies have advanced very far. We've discussed in this studio that 5G technologies, which form a directed signal from multiple precise sources — that's the same principle that's applied here.

Our Soviet laser tank had multiple barrels, you could say, each of which was single-use, each requiring a powerful energy source. All these systems were originally developed but didn't go forward because each antenna required its own powerful source. But now, control systems allow forming that laser beam from multiple sources — we're talking about this. It's a complex optical system formed from multiple small beams, collected into a single bundle, a beam whose intensity and direction can be controlled.

This requires a software base, predictive software, so you know precisely that at 600 meters you need to deliver a specific amount of energy to burn a hole in the casing of a drone or a rocket. You need to calculate exactly what's needed — if you underpower it, you'll just illuminate the target uselessly, and if you overpower it, you waste energy. So you need good software. And so on.

All these technologies have converged, and now they allow — as the Americans are doing — mass production. The next step they're already taking is sending all this electromagnetic and laser equipment for field trials with the troops. Judging by reports and publications, the troops aren't initially very satisfied — because they don't really understand what to do with it. Equipment works very well in the laboratory, and we sit here discussing it so easily — bang, bang, done. But in the field — dust, smoke, sand, snow, blizzards, fog — it loses power, you have to somehow compensate, and so on. But everything is gradually being overcome, and I want to emphasize again: with this stated goal of transitioning to new technologies, the path is absolutely irreversible.

Host: And what about the business side and the American military-industrial complex? Surely they have their own serious plans here?

Grigoriev: Of course, yes. Each year the Pentagon spends no less than a billion dollars on the roughly 30 programs currently underway within this major project — just investing in research, testing, biomedical studies, building dependency curves and programs, and so on.

A portion of the money — more than a billion — goes to Israel, because they have joint production, joint development. Israel develops and supplies these laser systems to the United States. They estimate the addressable market at about 10 billion dollars per year — and it keeps growing.

What's interesting is that they have about 30 active programs on this subject today.

Host: As we know, there might be far more than that.

Grigoriev: Because these are historic laboratories, very serious ones. Unlike in the Soviet Union, these scientific institutes weren't demolished or repurposed — they've been gradually building up, building up, building up.

Host: And they weren't "optimized"?

Grigoriev: No, of course not. According to the literature, publications, and articles, it's quite possible the Chinese are overtaking them — quite possible. The Chinese have invested colossal money in this direction, and what they're demonstrating now at their latest military parade... They displayed their electromagnetic guns, which in combination — you can set up several of them — can fully simulate the powerful electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear explosion. That's colossal energy, measured in gigawatts — that's very, very much. And the theory they present suggests that with such installations — not with anti-aircraft missiles, the way they shot down the plane near Sverdlovsk, and so on — that's considered outdated now. With such installations, they'll create a defensive shield against hypersonic and all other missiles.

And of course, as we've discussed, personnel get affected, civilian populations get affected — everyone gets affected.

The United Nations issued a special report last year — a fairly thick document analyzing the development of new military technologies, including a large section specifically devoted to directed energy weapons and electromagnetic weapons. And human rights — because it's believed that all of this will affect civilian populations, naturally.

Host: As for defense against electromagnetic weapons, there's surely a whole complex of very significant problems that exist today.

Grigoriev: You see, the situation is characterized by a high degree of study of this problem — especially in our country. In our country, a great deal of detailed work was done, both in the context of protecting against high-altitude nuclear detonations and simply in terms of health and safety standards. Theoretically, everything exists. But a certain complacency, a certain fixation on expecting conventional missiles — a lack of full understanding that the revolution isn't only happening in smartphones. These smartphones are actually an element that demonstrates a revolution in security, in defense — it's happening everywhere.

Host: But the thinking remains stereotypical?

Grigoriev: The thinking is, of course, what was taught 40 or 50 years ago. Instead of getting a bit ahead of the curve... And we used to be ahead — we mentioned these laser tanks, Lenin who supported the idea, though there was nothing then — just some lamps, some antennas, and so on. You see, we used to move ahead of the curve. Now, of course, that's a big question, a big question.

Because in all the analytical reviews published by the United States and countries unfriendly to us, the main competitor is considered to be China. China. India, surprisingly, has its own program and is considered a competitor. Europe is considered a competitor to a lesser degree, despite having made a laser weapon — Rheinmetall — they still consider China the main competitor.

Host: We have one minute left. Let's summarize our conversation.

Grigoriev: I would summarize our discussion as follows. Electromagnetic war is an approaching reality. It will affect everyone — both on the battlefield and, as they say, on the home front. Because this is an entirely unconventional weapon, and as both theory and practice have shown, it can be deployed in completely non-traditional, selective, targeted, and sudden ways. Therefore, we need to prepare, in my view — prepare from all angles. And this issue must be restored to being one of the most urgent and most important. Otherwise, as some generals write, these technologies will lead to a situation where, in the medium term, even the existing nuclear deterrence system will become absolutely useless.

Host: So as usual, there's plenty to work on and plenty to think about.

Grigoriev: Indeed.

Host: Oleg, thank you very much for this fascinating conversation. Oleg Grigoriev has been with us today — Doctor of Biological Sciences and member of the Bureau of the Russian Academy of Sciences Council on Radiobiology. A reminder, friends — subscribe to the Zvezda Analytika channel on the national messenger Max. You'll find links to all our programs and non-trivial news there. Please subscribe to the Zvezda Analytika channel on Max. Until next time. Thank you.

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